Brett Campbell (00:00.624)
Hello and welcome to another episode of Future Learners. I am your host, Brett Campbell, CEO and Chairman of Euka Future Learning, and I’m joined by the one and only, the founder and Head of Education, Ellen Brown. How are you today, Ellen?
Brett Campbell (00:17.232)
Very good to hear Ellen. So firstly, just a shout out to those listeners who have jumped over to iTunes, Spotify and dropped us a five star review. And of course, to those who have recently subscribed to our YouTube channel. So we do do this podcast over all available bat channels, wherever you can listen and you can see we will most likely be there producing this show for you. So if you prefer to watch on YouTube, head over to YouTube, you get future learning, you can subscribe.
Ellen (00:17.342)
Very well thanks Brett!
Brett Campbell (00:46.128)
get notified every time an episode goes live. Today’s episode, Ellen, we are going to be speaking about something that is really interesting to me because the more rabbit holes that I’ve progressed down as it relates to this topic, the more I would say outcomes are produced. And what I mean by that, the topic that we’re going to be talking today is essentially around learning preferences. So,
Yeah, types of learning preferences. How do we identify our child’s learning preferences? And then of course, how can we create a learning environment to harness those particular learning preferences? So that is what we’re gonna be talking about today. I’m gonna hand to you and I’d love for you, Ellen, cause I know you’ve done a lot of work in this area as well, is let’s just do a high level,
I guess, introduction of learning preferences. What are the three, four, we’ll talk about the four key learning preferences here today. But how does learning preferences and so forth relate to education and learning per se?
Ellen (02:03.646)
Yes, so look, you know, sometimes the first time a parent even hears about learning preferences is when they’re going through this, let’s get an educational program together and how will I help my child learn. And interesting, they probably don’t even know their own learning preference, you know, and that’s something to actually spend a little bit of time on. And, and we, you know, we had a
a guest recently, Brooke, who was speaking about the fact that she knew she was an auditory learner, she learns best by listening. And so she was trying to teach her child in the same way that she learns. And that’s where there was a disconnect. And that often happens to kids when they’re in school, when you have a teacher who has a certain learning preference, and then, you know, they are trying to teach in that way, and it’s not the way the child learns best. So that’s just a roundabout way of saying we all learn in different ways. And there are
four that we can distinctly talk about, but they, you know, and we’re all got a bit of each, but you know, you’re, you could be an auditory learner where you learn best by listening. You could be a visual learner where you learn best by seeing something you need to see a map or a diagram in order to know what, you know, make sense of something new. You might be a kinesthetic learner, which is a hands -on learner. You prefer to actually make something then read about it. Those kind of people don’t necessarily like the instruction booklets.
And then there’s the reading and writing learners who need to just write it. They need to write it down, you know, and then process it that way. So they’re the different styles we’re talking about.
Brett Campbell (03:30.288)
Hmm. And as you’re probably listening to this, your head’s probably nodding and, oh yeah, there’s that. I’m probably more this. And, you know, as you were going through it, I certainly, yeah, myself, my learning style is definitely kinesthetic is my primary, I would say. And, and, and, and this is a real big caveat because the further down that rabbit hole you go of learning, the further you realize that each of these areas can be highlighted in different parts of learning.
Right? So I really like audio books, but only certain types of audio books. Right. I, I like visually learning through seeing, but only certain things. So I can learn some things better by one of the other modalities versus the other. So it’s not a thing here where you identify that your child loves being hands on and they like learning through doing and moving, which is the kinesthetic learning.
is it doesn’t necessarily mean you need to now adapt everything to be kinesthetic. Cause that’s just not how the world operates. Um, but you know, as you, you mentioned a little bit earlier with, with Brooke, with her son Noah is he listens to audio books and he retains so much more information and he’s, he’s able to be able to have discussions about it. It’s interesting actually, even if we talk about the kinesthetic just for a second, cause I love reading books. Excuse me. I love reading books.
Um, I loved it that much that I almost bloody passed out. Um, so I love that. I love the feel of reading a book, right? Cause there’s you read it on a, on a paperback book versus you look at it on a Kindle, right? Um, two very similar outcome, but two very different situations. Like there’s something for me about turning the paper and, and knowing how far I’m through and knowing how far I’ve got to go in the book. Um, but then I find that.
I personally can consume probably if I looked at my, I mean, I’ve got quite a large collection of hand held books, paperback books, et cetera. But I’d say my audio library is probably 10 times what of, maybe even more to be fair than the paperback types of books. So it’s very interesting to see where you learn best because I,
Brett Campbell (05:59.12)
I think a lot of people, I know myself and I’ll say this and a lot of students that I sort of speak to more in that, let’s call it the business world is they feel that they have to read a paperback book and like you’re not successful if you’re not reading a book a week, right? And it’s this whole thing around how learning has been created and the shackles that we place upon ourselves to learn.
Right? So, um, I just, again, what, why I’m talking about that and why I want to frame that up is it’s very important that as we’re, what we’re about to go through and we’re going to share different ways on how to identify it, you know, what, what your child may or may not, um, or shouldn’t be, or should be potentially spending more time doing, um, don’t get caught on, on a singular, um, way of doing something because it’s, it’s different for everyone and everything. Um,
But there’s some really cool things that we’ll be able to share on how you can identify that. And then at the end of the day, let the proof be the pudding, right? The proof is in the pudding. I mean, let the proof be the pudding. I don’t even think that’s a saying, but it is today, Alan, here on Future Learners. There we go. So Alan, you’ve obviously, you’ve got more children than me. You’ve had more experience around the teaching world than me, obviously.
Ellen (07:10.91)
It is now. Yeah, that’s right. No, that’s exactly right.
Brett Campbell (07:25.648)
What have you identified as it relates to different learning styles? Like what are some things that you could see sort of early on and figure out and anything else you can sort of share around that to start with?
Ellen (07:42.59)
Yeah, that’s actually the key. What you said about what you can figure out, what you can see. Observation and reflecting on what your child’s doing is one of the biggest and most important ways of seeing where they learn best, what they’re naturally drawn to doing. And so, yes, there’s lots of self -assessment checklists and things like that, questionnaires and things that you can do to identify that. And as an adult, that might be really helpful for you to know that about yourself.
But if you actually put into place a bit of observation, writing down some notes while you’re observing them doing a lesson that involves the different learning styles, and you’ll start to say, oh yes, my child gravitates to the hands -on, but when I say, let’s get the activity sheet out and fill that out, we start sliding off his chair, that kind of thing. They’re very obvious, kids don’t hide.
But like you said, there’s gonna be crossover. So you don’t sort of go, okay, we’re gonna throw out all the activity sheets, we’re only gonna do all the hands on, because that can get boring too. And so you don’t want anything to be stale. But you might say to yourself, you know, as a parent, I’ve been, I’ve been doing it’s trial and error, I’ve been trying a few different things. And I can see that my child’s way more engaged when we learn in this particular way. And then your plan around that. So it’s starting by observation, making some notes trying trial and error is a good one and if you need to if you find you need
Brett Campbell (09:04.496)
How long would you observe for, Ellen? How long would you observe for, you know, before you can go, you know what, I think I’ve got conclusive evidence that my child really does not like auditory learning.
Ellen (09:22.046)
look, I would I would be definitely leaving it more than a week because sometimes you just have a bad week, don’t you or a bad day, you know, I would let the lot lots of people who start home education will start and say, you know, within the first couple of weeks, they get into the hang of things. So you know, within the month, you would know where you were headed as far as what your child enjoys most. And you wouldn’t want to do a gut reaction thing straight away and go, this is where their learning styles, we’re going to focus just in this area.
Brett Campbell (09:26.8)
Yeah.
Ellen (09:51.102)
You wouldn’t want to do that because, you know, we all change too. So yes, right now in grade three, my child might be much more into the auditory learning, but you might find by grade five that’s shifted and changed. Well, we’re not necessarily stuck in one particular learning style all our lives either.
Brett Campbell (10:07.984)
And I think to double tap there is the other thing to be very aware of is you don’t want to eradicate a learning style either because you’re going to remove a certain level of skills that are created via doing that. So whilst your child might not like listening, when I say listening, what child likes listening really? So when, what, your child might not like learning via listening or listening to audio books, or it might be hard because they are getting super distracted. You can now minimize that, but I would still encourage you to make sure that there is that form of learning as well involved. Because if we take it as an example here, and there’s lots of different ways of learning auditory as well, not just talking about audio books here, but I can only…
Ellen (10:36.766)
for the next one.
Brett Campbell (11:03.888)
listen to audio books and retain information. Because this is the other part. There’s putting something in your ears and listening to it, or there’s putting a video on and watching it. But the real outcome we’re trying to get here is the completion of and the lesson learned. The task isn’t watch this 30 minute video and that’s your task complete. It’s like, did you learn?
the outcome that was proposed from this thing. So for me though, I cannot listen to audio books if I am doing nothing. Like I can’t just, I can’t just sit there. And again, this is obviously more about my behavior than anything. I mean, I can sit there. Let me just say that I can sit there, but I really do not like just sitting, listening to an audio book, right? Cause what I find is if I’m listening to an audio book, I might be on my phone doing something else.
And that’s very distracting. And I’ve gone 20 minutes through the book and I’m like, I don’t even remember what was even said there. So it’s actually a complete waste of time. What I find is when I combine auditory with visual, and auditory with written, is I’ll be listening to the audio book and I can read along in the audio book as well. And that applies the depth of connection because I’m learning through two modalities, right? So,
We can always be learning in multiple modalities as well is very, very important. But something I just really want to make sure I make a point of there is always include all variables of learning. Try to amplify those that your child can actually benefit from a lot more. You don’t want to be doing hands -on activities every single day to create a specific outcome. It’s really finding that blend. Because here’s the thing is, once a child finds their modality of learning, they will quickly be able to find the things that they’re passionate about and they enjoy. And then they’ll want to expend a lot more time, effort, energy learning. So we use Noah as an example, right from, from, um, our previous episode, um, young boy with learning disabilities, as soon as his mother found out that he likes to listen, um, uh, auditory learning, she then,
Brett Campbell (13:29.392)
put him on that path and then she found his passion, which was dogs. And then they just went and got every piece of content around dogs, right? So it’s a path to finding what your child is interested in as well. Because it’s not just the interest topic, it’s the way in which the topic is delivered as well. That’s a very, very important thing.
Ellen (13:52.574)
I really like that Brett, because what you’re saying is really important and it’s actually even curriculum based. So, you know, you might be doing lessons and your child is enjoying one particular style of learning, but learning this, if your child’s not an auditory learner and you know that, it means you can be a little bit more proactive about the skills of listening and building that into what you’re teaching your child because obviously as they’re going up through the years listening is going to be something that they’re really going to need later. You know now and you know the learning style that your child is has a preference towards you’ll know where you’ll need to put in some specific learning. So it might be about listening or if your child is not necessarily a visual learner and.
and finds diagrams and charts and maps really tricky, you’ll be able to do some real specific learning in that area to give them confidence because sometimes our learning preference can look like it’s a preference when really it’s not feeling confident with a certain thing like charts and maps and diagrams. So if your child finds those really tricky instead of going, oh no, that’s not their style, they don’t really particularly like those, then you could say, let’s do a treasure hunt and let’s use a map. Let’s start sort of demystifying some of those things that can sometimes be a roadblock as well. So making sure, like you said, Brett, that, you know, even though there’s a certain preference of learning and you use that to your advantage, that then you actually also make the choice to be specific about and purposeful about making skills and lessons to do with those skills that are not necessarily natural to them.
Brett Campbell (15:28.688)
Yeah, I used to teach this in a workshop many years ago and it was something that I would always say at the start of the workshop is, you know, you can come to a two day workshop and you can be sitting there in a seminar room and you’re listening to someone talk and.
that might be great. You walk out, you’re really excited. You’re like, yes, I’ve got great information on it. I can go and apply. But then the next day, two weeks later, you’re like, I don’t even remember what I went to listen to. Right. You might remember a couple of things because they’re connected through story, which is another thing to talk about when it comes to amplifying learning. But I used to share some metrics and I’ve got them here as well. And I think this will be really important for people to know and understand. So.
This here was, there’s a concept called the learning pyramid was developed back in the 1960s by the NTL Institute of Bethel. All right. So that was in Maine. And the numbers, how it sort of looked is 5%. All right. So this is, this is how learners retain information. Okay. And this is the whole point of it. It’s not about how information is delivered. Retainment of information is key.
So 5 % of people, 5 % of what they learn when they’ve learned from lecture. Okay, so you’ll remember 5 % if you’ve learned it from a lecture. So you go sit in a lecture room, like I did at university, I think I’d be lucky to have retained 5 % to be fair. But when you’re being lectured too, right? 10 % of what they learn when they’ve learned from reading. So if you just read something, right, you generally, unless you’ve got photographic memory, you’ll learn and retain.
20 % of what they learn from audio visual, 30 % of what they learn when they see a demonstration, so seeing that actual thing in practice, you’ll retain 50 % of what they learn when engaged in a group discussion, right? So it’s the ability to be able to communicate about it. Hey, what’d you see here? What did I see? Well, I thought this, I thought that. Because again, different parameters you’ll be able to pick up from other people’s thoughts that you haven’t been able to gauge.
Brett Campbell (17:38.48)
75 % retainment of what they learn when they practice what they’ve learned. Okay, so that’s that repetition, the skill of repetition. It’s you go somewhere, you learn something, you go back, you keep practicing, you keep practicing, you keep practicing. But you’ll be able to retain 90 % of what they learn when they teach someone else and they use it immediately. So this is why for me personally, as I’ve gone through my education journey and learning, and I’m so curious about so many things, the problem I had was.
Excuse me. I would, I’d want to learn so much and I’d read so much about so much, but then I’d just forget it all. I’m like, I have to, I have to put my, um, the time and effort that I’m putting into this to, I need it to yield the results. So I, um, actually I wrote a quote in my book and it’s, it’s the, it’s the, the methodology of how I’ve, I guess, adopted to learning, right? So it’s learned to teach, teach to know, know to share and share to inspire. Okay. So learn to teach. So if you adopt an anything as though you have to then after this, you have to go and take this and teach it to someone you’re gonna you’re just by proxy of knowing that you have to go teach it and knowing that if you turn up the teaching this you and you don’t know it, it’s just gonna create this, oh my God, I’m about I need to know. So it automatically changes the way in which you approach learning. Okay, so and then if. Of course, the teach to know is really teach it so you really know it and you can become a, you know, don’t have to become a master at everything. But so what I would always do is in my early days of, of when I was in the health and fitness industry was I would go and take complex studies, you know, around fat and hormones and, and physiology and so forth. And I would read the studies and I go, how do I then take this and now one retain the information? Cause it’s very important information.
But then how will I retain it for a long term? So what I’ll do is the next day I would go into my, when I’ve got my clients, I would go and tell all 10, 11 clients that I’d have in my one -on -one training sessions. I’ll go and tell them the same piece of information I learned yesterday. And I can sit here right now and I won’t do that to bore you to death, but I can sit here right now with like a couple of hundred tidbits of information that I’ve retained 15 years ago, that I never would have retained if I didn’t go through that, that element of repetition. So.
Brett Campbell (20:05.36)
This sort of just feeds back into the initial thing of it’s not just one or the other here. It’s the, as you can see here, it’s the, the ability to, um, bring all of them and infuse them together. And then that concept of obviously teaching and, and using it immediately. That’s where I highly encourage every family member or every parent who, um, learns with their child or their child does learning actually at the end of the day. Sit down and do a recap of your day every day and get them to teach you something. Cause I’m telling you the retaining of information for your child will just be absolutely enormous. Um, can’t speak highly of that enough.
And any thoughts to that, Owen?
Ellen (20:55.038)
Oh, I think that’s fantastic. And even as a family, you know, to have that opportunity to sit around the table or, you know, sit together in the evening and talk about what you learned. That is such a valuable thing. And I know, from my own experience, even with, you know, teenagers, they’re really keen to let you know, like you think to yourself, oh, you know, the little ones are always keen to tell you what they know. And generally, that can drop off by the time they turn into teenagers. But if they know that something that becomes a bit of a
you know, tradition that you do most nights, then they actually are quite eager to share something that they know. So they’re very proactive about learning it during the day. So really agree with you on that. It’s, it’s really important to know how your children learn best so that you can tailor what they’re doing, what you’re learning with them, you know, all the time. But also what about the emotional and social factors that affect their learning as well, Brett, like that’s obviously really important, no matter what learning preference they have.
Brett Campbell (21:52.432)
Yeah. And again, this feeds back to, we’ve done an episode on this around communication. I mean, we could do a hundred episodes and never be fully, fully done with that topic, but effectively all of these elements fall under the barrier of communication as well. It’s like your ability to architect and articulate your words in a written format will naturally increase your ability to articulate and architect your words.
in the verbal context and the ability to be able to actually have the discussion, right? Your ability to be able to hear how these words sound and resonate and the impact that these words have, they all are a cumulative effect for the end outcome, which is how do we set our children up for success when it comes to learning? Right, these are skills that, yes, you might find that your child is,
an auditory learner in the early years of their life. But it’s like that will, once they can uncover that and they’re aware of that and, and they understand that that’s actually okay, that you like to listen to something, but your best friend likes to, you know, have hands on experiences, et cetera, et cetera, by knowing, first of all, we’re all different, which is a, is a really good thing to know and understand. Um, yeah, because again, one of those things was I got kicked out of class a lot because I just did not like,
reading the books. I just thought that all I seen was words. Yeah. Numbers just like, Massos. I was again, I passed through my subjects, but it just was not exhilarating at all. But then when I became a cabinet maker and I had to learn how to grab a measuring tape and go to the floor and mark out an entire kitchen for a house and work out a cutting list and do all of these things, I was just like, Oh my God, I love mass. I was like,
Oh, now I see what mass was all about. Right. So I just found a different way to apply these specific ways of learning. And I think once, once we can do that for our children, it’ll open up an experience for them where now not necessarily every child is going to love learning, but I’m yet to find a child who, when they find something they love doing, it cannot be applied to learning. Like everything can be applied to learning. And it really comes back to.
Brett Campbell (24:17.488)
identifying that there is a framework to help your child learn better from, which is what we’re talking about here, and then spending the time identifying that. But then thirdly, just to wrap that piece up is to amplify it to another level. It’s then you take all of that learning that they’ve created and you get them to teach it to you. Right. Like the amount of things that I’ve taught my wife that I know she has zero interest in hearing.
Ellen (24:19.486)
I totally agree.
Brett Campbell (24:45.457)
I did it for my, for my benefit of, Hey, did you know about this, this, this? I’m like, I’m trying to learn history and history is quite complex, right? Cause there’s so many different things that have gone on and you know, you got to remember all the way back to, you know, 1763 when XYZ happened. And so you don’t remember that by just reading it or listening to it. Like you have that sort of stuff. You have to be able to teach and open up an environment where your child can, and again, not to teach you everything, but.
The things that they’re passionate about, if they’re allowed to teach that, you’re going to start to see an entirely different child transform in front of your eyes.
Ellen (25:25.022)
Yeah, absolutely. I would say, you know, if we’re looking now at the practical, what does it look like in an everyday environment as a homeschooling parent, that will come down to being able to look at the lessons that you’ve got for your child, the program that you’ve got for your child and saying, okay, each say, in the UKA program, each one of our lessons has an auditory section has a visual section has a video, you know, it’ll have a an activity sheet for kids that like that reading and writing and writing have a practical activity to do. And so making those decisions on each lesson now, you know, as in a in a practical sense, you’re not going to do every hands on activity first, a maths one, then an English one, then a science one, but choose one. And what I have often found as a parent homeschooling is I might choose a hands on activity that will be really engaging for them, it might be something that they’re doing in science.
But while that’s going on, we might be talking about something that’s happening in history. Because like you said before, sometimes they’ll learn something better while they’re busy creating, making something. They’re actually able to talk or listen to something in a much better way because it’s not that intense focused talking and listening kind of way. And that’s not the way they learn best. So sometimes.
mine have enjoyed having an audio book on that’s the novel that they’re doing for English but they might be making something at the same time for art. So different ways of being able to say okay I know we need to listen to the book I know they prefer to listen to it then read it then you know when will they listen best and maybe while they’re doing something. So that’s on a practical level as a parent you’ll work through what works best for your child and then it’ll be far more enjoyable. You know a lot of the times where you’ve got a child who’s
really negative about what they’re being asked to do, you need to stop and go, why is that? Because kids naturally want to learn, you see them, you think to yourself, my goodness, from the time they’re crawling around, they’re already in search of learning, they just got a thirst to learn. So we want that natural desire to learn to still be going, you know, still be leading them as they’re growing up.
Ellen (27:37.374)
So if you do find that you’re butting heads about something that you’re learning, think about is it the way that the learning’s being done rather than just the topic?
Brett Campbell (27:45.264)
Yeah, absolutely. And another, another big thing that is very important when it relates to learning is the utilization of stories, right? Um, stories, metaphors, uh, very, very, very powerful tools that you can use. Now, if it doesn’t come naturally to you, obviously it takes a little bit of work, but what, what you’ll realize is, um, a lot of the most powerful lessons in the world come via.
movies and shows that have been architected in such a way that there’s an underlying theme behind it. Right. And, and yeah, there’s a reason why the Dumbo movie, Disney’s Dumbo, why everyone viscerally gets like, I mean, I was as a, as a child, I almost think it traumatized me that when, when Dumbo got taken away from, from his mom. But there’s a reason why we connect with that because it’s, it’s metaphorical. It’s, it’s a connectiveness of.
It wasn’t really the sadness of Dumbo leaving its mom. It was me leaving my mom, right? So stories have depth and they can really help. And this is more for advice for parents who, you know, when your child’s trying to learn something and you’re like, well, read the words, that’s all there is. Or I don’t know any other way to say it, right? Is you can add that extra special source and by trying to tell them something in a slightly different way and stories can really, really be beneficial there.
For me, and I’ve mentioned this a number of times in the podcast, when I was in physics class, like physics is a really interesting topic. Now I love it. But at high school, I was just like, ah, this is just because it took too much for me to try and understand. So I was like, I’ll put in the two hard basket because I’d constantly ask questions, go, hey, what about this? How do I do this? And the teacher would explain it the same way to me all the time. I’m just like, OK, I’ve heard you say that now three times. Clearly, I don’t understand it. And a friend would say, hey, it’s this, this, this. I’m like, oh, I didn’t.
Okay, why don’t you just say that, right? But if that was as easy as it was to communicate, then there’d be no problems in the world ever. But it really is a great opportunity for you as a parent to, where you can be involved in the outcome of the learning. And you can do that by strapping on these extra tools and at the end of the day, obviously doing a bit of a recap, getting them to teach you.
Brett Campbell (30:03.664)
getting them to replay it back to you. And then of course, if they’re what don’t they understand, let’s talk about that. Let’s get, and then for you to be able to provide extra context around stories or metaphors or, you know, it’s like a specific metaphor might be something along the lines. Let’s say I’m trying to, you know, I’m trying to get Ayla to stop doing something, right? And,
She doesn’t understand why. And then I have to explain to her, it’s a different story. It’s like, so the other day, um, she found a bug, right. And it was in the, in the pool and she found a bug and she wanted to squash the bug for whatever reason. Yeah. I had to tell her a story that that bugs mommy’s looking for it and don’t don’t hurt the bug. Um, and she, she didn’t realize when I said, Oh, don’t do that. That’s mean. That’s not like, that’s naughty. Like that didn’t, it’s like,
still want to do it. But when I added the context of the story of going, that little bug has a mommy that wants to go home to and it’s trying to get home. And then all of a sudden just immediately the shift in her and she was just empathetic, like, Oh, help the bug. And then she’s trying to help the bug and trying to find its mom. And like, it just starts a whole different thing. But stories are another way to really anchor in learning moments for your children.
Ellen (31:26.046)
Absolutely. Look, I would say learning style is really important. It helps as a guide to where you’re going. But at the end of the day, you know, it’s most important to let your child be a leader in them initiating what it is or how it is that they learn best. There’ll always be some subjects that they don’t warm to or they don’t love, and there’ll be others that they just do all day. Well, let them do those ones all day. And the ones they don’t love, you know,
do what you need to do to get the learning done in a style that works for them. But that’s one of the wonderful things about homeschooling, that opportunity to let them really thrive in areas that they really love and in a way that they can really engage. So that’s one of the big wins in homeschooling, I’d say.
Brett Campbell (32:11.728)
Awesome. Um, Alan, anything else to wrap up this episode? I think we covered a, covered a fair bit in a shorter period of time.
Ellen (32:21.918)
Yes, I think we did. I think we’ve done a great job on that. I think it’s just a matter of, you know, trial and error, like everything is as a parent. Trial and error is the way to go. But I think also I challenge you to go out and find out about your own learning style. I bet you haven’t even thought about how you learn best. And I think it’ll be a really I think doing that for yourself as a parent will actually really help you then get some context around how you can best support your children in their learning.
Brett Campbell (32:47.28)
Yep, absolutely. All right, well, thank you very much for tuning into this episode. If you’ve gotten value from this, please share this episode with someone that you also think will get value from it. And of course, head over to all those platforms, drop us five star reviews, like, subscribe, all of those beautiful things that you can do at the disposal of your tap of your thumb on your phone. Alan, thank you so much and we will see you on the next episode.
